Enter your idea

Part 2 of 2:

'You also assert that "Xero don't provide APIs or reports that allow 3rd parties to get the data out of Xero." This is factually incorrect. Xero provides a robust API that allows us to extract comprehensive data, including the necessary information for a complete financial recovery.'

- As above, that's entirely fair, I'm out of date or have misremembered here. I think I've confused what you can get via the reports and exports in Xero via the front end GUI (which I think I'm right in saying doesn't give full accounting data) with what can be retrieved via the APIs (which I entirely bow to your knowledge on).

'You suggest that "any 3rd party app provider has just the same motivations to keep their version of the data proprietary as the original vendor did." This is a cynical assumption and does not reflect our business practices. We are committed to data accessibility and portability, not vendor lock-in. Our business model is built on providing a crucial service that Xero itself does not offer: reliable, accessible data recovery in open formats.'

- To be fair here, I specifically said I wasn't implying your organisation does this and you have an admirable model. I don't however think it's especially cynical to suggest that businesses are sometimes inclined to maximise their profits and to attempt to lock customers in, industry has a bit of form there! But again, to reiterate, I didn't and am not saying you are doing that.

'You advocate for an international (ISO) standard for exporting and backing up accounting software data. While we agree that standardization would be beneficial, the reality is that businesses cannot wait for such standards to materialize. They need solutions now. Control-C provides that solution.'

- Yep, we totally agree, I made the exact same point that we couldn't wait for industry agreement. My solution was different to yours though, because I want Xero to provide a solution to this themselves.

'You suggest Xero should just dump data to JSON. While this is a simple solution for a subset of data, it would not provide the comprehensive data required for a full recovery. Also, JSON is not an open standard for financial data, XML is. Furthermore, there are international standards like SAF-T (Standard Audit File for Tax) which is an XML-based standard for the electronic exchange of accounting data for audit purposes. This is a far more robust and widely recognized format for financial data exchange, but Xero currently does not support SAF-T exports.'

- I'm not tied to a format, and yes that's a good point that there are probably better formats to use than JSON. As long as it's non-proprietary and standardised I'm not precious on the format!

'You've made a sweeping statement about 'all us consumers of the software' failing in their 'legal fiduciary responsibilities.' If you are referring to the Xero 'Terms of Use', yes, I agree. The key point to press here though is, while data protection is crucial, it's essential to understand that every business's Business Continuity Plan (BCP) is tailored to its specific needs. A small business with a single user and a few invoices has vastly different recovery requirements than a multinational corporation with complex integrations and multi-currency transactions, therefore is likely that data backups could be managed manually for the small business, but not recommended or practical for more complex or mature businesses.'

- You're slightly misquoting me there and my original point isn't as clear as it could have been. The customer I'm referring to there is the person who signs off the decision to adopt an accounting system for a business, so typically a company director/owner. You're spot on of course about differing scenarios for different sizes of business, but ultimately, in the UK at least, we have a responsibility to maintain accounts accurately and if people are relying on Xero to do that customers do need a way to restore a functioning set of accounts should issues arise. My point is that Xero does not, out of the 'box', provide a way to get that information which in the event of a major outage leaves company owners vulnerable while they try to rebuild their accounts from other records. Again though, we agree here really, because you have recognised that same issue and have developed a system to fill that gap. As has probably become apparent by now, I just believe Xero should provide that out of the box!

Hope that clears it up, I shouldn't have name checked you and Control-C in my original post, I'm simply advocating for Xero to do more out of the box to allow users to have usable copies of their data.

All the best
Tom

Part 1 of 2:

Hi Campbell,

Really appreciate your response. I'll start with an apology, I should have said that your system is doing an admirable job of trying to provide the functionality Xero is missing by default, I understand I've probably made you feel a bit picked on there, and yes, you are right that the Xero APIs do more on the bulk retrieval side than I'd remembered, I completely accept I'm wrong there.

The funny thing is that whilst we are having a row here, I'm actually agreeing, and was inspired to write my post, by your earlier post where you said:

'It's important to note that it's NOT possible to restore your org data back into Xero. Anyone making this claim either doesn't understand the true definition of 'Restore' or isn't aware that it's not possible to restore the Journal (and some other key data) back into a new org in Xero. We backup Xero data.

Using the data that we backup, we understand that it's possible to reconstitute a set of accounts. We can provide a document that offers a high-level overview of the process and what's required to achieve this.

<Snip>

Rebuilding a full set of accounts from raw data isn't a trivial process, but it's possible. With the right skills and time, exceptional results can be achieved - you'll be the judge of that from your testing.'

What you are saying there is my ultimate point: Xero users should not have to rely on a third-party product, no matter how good and well intentioned it may be, in order to have a copy of their financial data that can be restored either back to Xero in the case of Xero losing the data, or into another system should the customer wish to change software. That data should be easily backed-up and should be portable and transferrable. As an industry it's long since due that we regulated that.

Just to pick up your responses section by section:

'Firstly, you state that "just having a backup of the Xero database tables is not going to help in the case of an outage." You're absolutely correct.

However, Control-C does not simply provide a backup of Xero's database tables. We offer comprehensive data exports in open, universally accessible formats such as XML, CSV, and XLSX. These are not proprietary formats; they are industry standards that can be readily consumed by any alternative accounting platform.'

- We are in complete agreement here I think!

'Furthermore, you suggest that "another 3rd party proprietary tool like the one Control-C provides isn't really the answer either." This statement demonstrates a critical misunderstanding of Control-C's offering. We are not a proprietary tool that locks you into a specific ecosystem. We provide data accessibility and a copy of your otherwise trapped data in Xero for the explicit purpose of recovery.'

- I'm not saying you are doing that, my point is just that users of cloud platforms shouldn't need to be dependent on 3rd party systems to get their data.

Hi @Tom Woodforde,

Thank you for your thoughtful, albeit misinformed, comments regarding Xero data backup and recovery. While you've raised some valid points about the limitations of cloud-based platforms, you've fundamentally misunderstood the purpose and value of services like Control-C.

Firstly, you state that "just having a backup of the Xero database tables is not going to help in the case of an outage." You're absolutely correct. However, Control-C does not simply provide a backup of Xero's database tables. We offer comprehensive data exports in open, universally accessible formats such as XML, CSV, and XLSX. These are not proprietary formats; they are industry standards that can be readily consumed by any alternative accounting platform.

Furthermore, you suggest that "another 3rd party proprietary tool like the one Control-C provides isn't really the answer either." This statement demonstrates a critical misunderstanding of Control-C's offering. We are not a proprietary tool that locks you into a specific ecosystem. We provide data accessibility and a copy of your otherwise trapped data in Xero for the explicit purpose of recovery.

You also assert that "Xero don't provide APIs or reports that allow 3rd parties to get the data out of Xero." This is factually incorrect. Xero provides a robust API that allows us to extract comprehensive data, including the necessary information for a complete financial recovery.

You suggest that "any 3rd party app provider has just the same motivations to keep their version of the data proprietary as the original vendor did." This is a cynical assumption and does not reflect our business practices. We are committed to data accessibility and portability, not vendor lock-in. Our business model is built on providing a crucial service that Xero itself does not offer: reliable, accessible data recovery in open formats.

You advocate for an international (ISO) standard for exporting and backing up accounting software data. While we agree that standardization would be beneficial, the reality is that businesses cannot wait for such standards to materialize. They need solutions now. Control-C provides that solution.

You suggest Xero should just dump data to JSON. While this is a simple solution for a subset of data, it would not provide the comprehensive data required for a full recovery. Also, JSON is not an open standard for financial data, XML is. Furthermore, there are international standards like SAF-T (Standard Audit File for Tax) which is an XML-based standard for the electronic exchange of accounting data for audit purposes. This is a far more robust and widely recognized format for financial data exchange, but Xero currently does not support SAF-T exports.

You've made a sweeping statement about 'all us consumers of the software' failing in their 'legal fiduciary responsibilities.' If you are referring to the Xero 'Terms of Use', yes, I agree. The key point to press here though is, while data protection is crucial, it's essential to understand that every business's Business Continuity Plan (BCP) is tailored to its specific needs. A small business with a single user and a few invoices has vastly different recovery requirements than a multinational corporation with complex integrations and multi-currency transactions, therefore is likely that data backups could be managed manually for the small business, but not recommended or practical for more complex or mature businesses.

Control-C provides the foundational element for any effective BCP: accessible, open-format data backups. With our data, businesses can confidently develop and execute their tailored BCPs, ensuring they can recover from any Disaster Recovery (DR) situation.

It's not just about backing up data; it's about:

- Meeting compliance requirements (ISO 27001, SOC 2, etc.).
- Ensuring data integrity.
- Enabling business continuity.
- Providing auditable record-keeping.

Control-C provides all of these things.

We understand your frustration with the limitations of cloud-based platforms. However, your criticisms of Control-C are based on misconceptions. We provide a valuable service that empowers businesses to take control of their data and ensure their financial resilience.

We strongly suggest you take a closer look at our offerings and understand the true value we provide.

Sincerely,

The Control-C Team

Campbell Green is quite right that just having a backup of the Xero database tables is not going to help in the case of an outage, because the only app that will be able to consume that backup is Xero, and if Xero is offline then the backup is useless. This is true of any cloud hosted software/platform, the only way to be safe is to use something that also has a desktop version that you can sync and backup (like Outlook) or to stick to desktop software like Sage 50.

However, another 3rd party proprietary tool like the one Campbell provides isn't really the answer either, because fundamentally Xero don't provide APIs or reports that allow 3rd parties to get the data out of Xero, and even if they did, any 3rd party app provider has just the same motivations to keep their version of the data proprietary as the original vendor did - Campbell I'm not saying this is what your company does, but if you get bought out by a VC firm then they might think that's a good idea!

What's needed, is an international (ISO) standard for exporting and backing up accounting software data. That shouldn't really be that hard, the core of any accounting system is a nominal ledger and a number of transaction tables, all of which essentially have the same core data, regardless of what software is used to produce them.

Trying to get all the manufacturers to agree a standard will lead to endless obfuscation and stalling by the vendors, but it would be heart warming if one vendor would just admit the issue and come up with a non-platform specifc way to export the key data to say JSON files, so that at the very least all us consumers of the software have something we can give to the tax authorities, our accountants and to other vendors should e.g. Xero go bust.

How about it Xero? I run a software company, and I've literally written accounting software in the past. Writing some SQL scripts to pull the key data out into a query and dumping that into a JSON file, testing all of that and deploying it is less than a week's work for one person, it is absolutely trivial for an organisation of your size. Could you just do that for us?

That simple act could provide all your customers with the reassurance they need. At the moment we are likely all literally failing in a legal fiduciary responsibilities by using your software, as we simply cannot take adequate measures to protect our organisation's financial records.

Why Relying on Your Accounting Platform for Backups is Not Practical

In today's digital age, safeguarding your accounting data is paramount. While platforms like Xero do not offer built-in backup solutions, users often request this feature, believing it will solve their data backup requirements. However, relying solely on your accounting platform for backups can be impractical and risky. Let's explore why you should consider third-party backup solutions to ensure your data's safety and accessibility.

Proprietary Formats Limit Flexibility: Accounting platforms would likely store backups in proprietary formats, limiting compatibility. Third-party backups often use open formats like CSV, ensuring accessibility.

Enhanced Disaster Recovery: Proprietary formats can hinder quick data migration during a DR event. Third-party backups offer flexibility for faster recovery.

Redundancy and Security: Relying on a single backup is risky. Third-party backups add redundancy, protecting against failures and cyber-attacks.

Compliance and Legal Requirements: Third-party solutions often provide robust compliance features, essential for regulated industries.

Counterparty Risk: Relying on one vendor for both accounting and backups introduces risk. Diversifying with third-party providers mitigates this.

Peace of Mind: Knowing your data is secure and accessible provides peace of mind.

Like to know more...

Unlock the Truth About Xero Data Backup & Restoration: What You Need to Know!

Are you under the impression that restoring your Xero data is as simple as clicking a button? Think again!

In our latest post, we dive deep into the myths and realities of Xero data restoration. Discover why a straightforward "restore" isn't possible, explore practical recovery options, and learn how to safeguard your financial data effectively.

Don't miss out on these crucial insights that could save your business from potential data disasters!

https://control-c.com/docs/understanding-xero-data-restoration-what-you-need-to-know/

Campbell Green
Xero App Partner
Control-C.com

I couldn't vote either. Why is that? It's ridiculous that the backup feature isn't available. I tried downloading from the options you provided, but the transactions for AP or invoices are limited to only 500, which makes it incredibly inconvenient. I'm starting to question why we switched to Xero in the first place—backing up our data with our previous provider was so much easier. I really should have known this before moving to Xero.

Kelly Munro wrote: " If of importance to your business, we do have some official app partners who can fulfill this need and you can explore these through our Xero App Store."

This is NOT possible!! Xero does not expose all of the data via API only some of it. Those that have figured out how to export some of the data find it impossible to restore it to a usable state.

Since Xero does not think you should be in control of your own data (Even thought their TOS states you need to make your own copy of your data) the only real alternative is to move to something else.

ALL SAAS application services are at risk of being breached in ways that no one thought about. Even if Xero had the best programmers in the world (They clearly do not) the risks are still there.

Why cannot I not vote on this side? Voting seemed to be switched off??

With the current geopolitical situation, I don't think anyone can be 100% sure of the secutity of their data unless they are off grid.
Xero, please recognise users' genuine concerns and support us so that we can mitigate risk by keeping a secure backup which is not cloud-accessible.
Surely this is not an unreasonable request?

Pls do ti

... imagine if every business around the world that uses Xero was unable to deliver services or pay staff on the last day of the month because Xero had a critical failure AND had not permitted them to maintain offline copies of their files.... Oh, wait

Another classic example, why xero needs to provide a better system to allow for local backups, all xero seem to do is cost business money due to down time............. please PLEASE PLEASE get your act together xero...........
******oh you are still unable to provide a human to contact ********

This week, regulators have called organisations to account for having been unable to maintain services due to the Crowdstrike-caused system failurs. Imagine if that was every business that uses Xero...
Xero, customer-maintained backup files should be just as important to your own risk management strategy as it is to ours.

Why can't I even vote for this idea? This is a crucial function that is needed urgently. The recent cyber outage has really shown the urgency of being able to have complete local backups of ALL our data.

Come on Xero, you keep increasing your prices drastically but you are so arrogant to state that you are not even considering to deliver the most crucial function for your customers to stay compliant???

After the events of last week, this must be a wake up call for all businesses to strengthen their BCPs and Xero to finally provide better solutions to back-up key data and files and not point to 3rd party apps! We can't possibly execute individual exports one by one each day or even each week. The legal implications to business owners are huge and perhaps time to move on, however painful this might be. We need back-ups and offline access, albeit with limits. At the very minimum give us a better API to develop our own solutions.

Upvoting on this feature is disabled, I am sure it would have been in the thousands.

Hello @Tom Diehl,

Thank you for the clarification.

It's important to note that it's NOT possible to restore your org data back into Xero. Anyone making this claim either doesn't understand the true definition of 'Restore' or isn't aware that it's not possible to restore the Journal (and some other key data) back into a new org in Xero. We backup Xero data.

Using the data that we backup, we understand that it's possible to reconstitute a set of accounts. We can provide a document that offers a high-level overview of the process and what's required to achieve this.

We highly recommend that every Business Continuity Plan (BCP) includes these steps documented in detail, and the business tests the process to verify with a level of confidence. Any extra steps required outside of the data that we backup should also be noted and exercised.

Rebuilding a full set of accounts from raw data isn't a trivial process, but it's possible. With the right skills and time, exceptional results can be achieved - you'll be the judge of that from your testing.

Using backapp (our free Windows app), you'll be able to see all your data that we backup with ease and continue operating your business with visibility of your Xero data in a user-friendly interface.

The main point here is having a backup is of more value than no backup at all ;-) How will you chase your Receivables should something go wrong? Can you still issue invoices while you recover your data? What is your Recovery Time Objective (RTO)? Come and visit our service in the Xero App Store and see how we can help answer these.

Disclaimer: Please note that while we strive to provide accurate information and support, Control C Limited cannot be held responsible for any inaccuracies or misinterpretations of the data restoration process. It's advisable for customers to seek professional advice from an accountant or financial expert to ensure compliance and accuracy of your accounting practices in the event of data recovery using your backed up data.

We're happy to field any questions that anyone may have.

Campbell Green

Founder, Control-C Ltd

@Campell Green Sorry, it was meant for Kelly @ Xero.

Unless something new has come along that I am not aware of there is no way to do a complete backup and restore of a Xero tenant either natively or with any existing 3rd party tools. I am happy to be corrected if this is not true.

Being able to backup and restore my data is important enough to me that I am currently looking to move to another program. Apparently, Xero management does not care if this costs them customers. Unless they start to lose a significant number of customers, I doubt they will ever address this problem.

@Tom Diehl I am not sure if your message below is aimed at me or Kelly @ Xero?

Hello @Billy Boys,

Thank you for your post and the questions.

Yes, we offer offline browsing of your Xero data in a Read-Only mode i.e. you can't make any changes to it, not that you would want to, but you can add notes against the transactions. We offer a Windows product called backapp that was purposely built for exactly this scenario, that you might want to browse your data in an off-line mode i.e. not internet connection.

We also offer automated daily backups and an optional one-off backup (snapshot of your accounts as of the day the backup completes). We do not offer a 'weekly' or 'monthly' automated backup option.

You are welcome to trial our product using our 7-day free trial, no card required (it only does the first 50 records of each data area). If you would like to trial the full backup option, you can fully subscribe and if you do not like it, we offer a full refund in the first 30 days.

Please feel free to email me directly at campbell@control-c.com

Happy to answer all your questions and help you get started.

Kind regards

Campbell Green
Founder Director
control-c.com

Hi Campbell,

I do my wife's books - a small consultancy.

Once a year or so, when we go away, unfortunately we won't have internet access, but it would be good to set up a budget for the upcoming FY and beyond.

It would be nice (and sensible) if I could run a static copy off before we leave, and be able to interrogate that while we are away and plan, while 'away' from the business.

Can your product do that?

Also, it would be peace of mind to just take a back up of all files, say once a week, at the click of a button, so that if something went wrong with XERO, one could at least have 'a starting off point' while XERO was repaired. ie an offline full copy.

Can your product do that for me?

Apologies but I am neither a techie nor a power user of XERO but roughly know my way around a set of accounts.

Regards.

BB