Enter your idea

Time to get this sorted Xero. A legal requirement for tax puposes to store data for retention of at least 7 years. These must be provided to IRD in a format specified on there own webste.
https://www.ird.govt.nz/managing-my-tax/record-keeping/computer-record-keeping-for-audit

If a customer chooses to finish using Xero, maybe the business has closed or some other reason, they are required to hold these records. Xero currently has no suitable means to provide this to their customers. As a paid subscription for a service and an NZ born company, this would be a no-brainer to ensure compliance with NZ law (albeit ATO as well). For a 'poster child' of NZ online services, Xero has some fundamental flaws that should have been addressed long before now.

As I said, time to get this sorted Xero!

Hi @Nigel Soakell
Thanks for your comments.

I unreservedly apolgise to anyone here, that may have read this thread, for not disclosing earlier in the thread that I am the founder of Control-C, an App Store partner, that provides a data backup solution for Xero.

Moving forward, as I do wish to contribute to this thread and not be seen as promoting Control-C wares, (don't forget I am a Xero user myself) could I point out that I think Kelly has made it quite clear here that there will be no change i.e. status quo will stand...

"... this isn't something we're looking to develop for individual use ourselves. If of importance to your business, we do have some official app partners who can fulfil this need and you can explore these through our Xero App Store."

May I respectfully suggest a change of tack to how you are all approaching this request.

The way forward for this group getting what they want, albeit through a paid App, would be to press Xero to open up the Accounting API and add access for App partners like us, to be able to write a new org's Journal from a backed up copy. We could get a step closer to providing a FULL restoration of an org. which I am sure is what you are requesting at the end of the day. Forget rolling back transactions, simply restore the dataset from the day the wheels fell off the wagon.

I worked at Xero, but I can't speak for them, but how many of you all suffer with the unique name constraint for your Contacts i.e. you can't have two David Smiths right (at least not up until I last checked), and I worked on that team. That is a big piece of work. Where I am going with this is, imagine the work required in providing backups to the granular level of what the end user expects. That is a tall ask.

I know you all reluctantly and understandably don't want to have to pay for this service, but you all seem to love Xero and want to stay, otherwise you would have left right? But wouldn't you rather have something, rather than nothing at all?

It might be an easier path for Xero to open the API Journal endpoint to write back your original data vs providing the solution themselves.

Just some food for thought and how you might actually get some traction sooner, as this old drum goes way back to pre-2012 (when I raised it with Rod Drury) and I don't see you making any progress?

Current Xero user, ex-Xero employee and Founder of Control-C

@Campbell Green
Thanks for the explanation and background and indeed Control-C may be the best option out there for Xero Users.

To be honest I did not go researching your name until Roger asked you specifically if you worked for Control-C, up until that point I had just assumed you were a fellow Xero user with no association to Control-C other than perhaps using the product yourself. I typically don't go researching people's details who post in this forum. And I don't believe anyone should really be expected to, as there is a certain amount of trust when engaging in these forums. I know on other platforms, there are requirements for disclosure or even removals of posts where they are seen to be promoting/recommending a product.

In terms of to disclose/not disclose, I think the rules are pretty clear, if you, someone close to you or your company will benefit in any way from recommending any product from some association with that product then you need to disclose this, as there is an obvious bias which is unknown to the reader. This is really no different than the FTC rules for social media influences.

Please don't get wrong I'm not say that Control-C is not the best product here, that's for people to take up your trial offer and determine for themselves. And I'm not saying you shouldn't be saying how the product works and how good it is, and I'd be concerned buying something from any company who did not believe in its own products. I'm just saying in my opinion you should have disclosed this from the outset.

Finally, I think this is now starting to diverge from the true purpose of this thread, which is do Xero Users want Xero to provide backup/restore as standard part of Xero. So, I'll just leave things as they are regrading disclosure and won't comment any further on the subject.

@Waddington
I am not sure as a business, the exporting provides the granularity that one would expect, and it is a tedious and manual process right. Recently a customer had some Invoices bulk deleted by mistake, if the backup had been in place they would be able to go back to that exact date and see what those invoices consisted of and rectify the issue, somehow manually. We have a full backup for every day for the life of the subscription. You can perform delta analysis on a daily basis - Forensic Auditors use our service just for this. We backup what is available via the Accounting API. Exporting, only scratches the surface of the data in Xero.

I would like to also draw attention to your mention of 3rd/4th party. Have you ever thought about who Xero store the data with and aware of data sovereignty? Control-C can domicile your data to your office if you wanted.

Traditionally yes, MYOB etc all offer the backup themselves, but probably only because they were born back in the days SaaS didn't exist (Sage, MYOB...) and everyone backed up their data on that server sitting in the corner of their office running perhaps MYOB?? Xero was cloud from day one, which is why we shifted, quite early in the piece. I can't speak for Xero, and why they didn't make the call to offer this functionality, but I can say that at the end of the day, we do what we need to do as a business to ensure we protect our data like an asset. Control-C helps users stick to their 'knitting' and focus on running their business, without having to worry about manual processes where possible.

Here is one compelling reason why you should consider using a 3rd party to protect your data - Minimize Counterparty Risk. Don't most 365 users use a 3rd party to backup, rather than Microsoft?

In a world where the reliability and security of digital systems are of utmost importance, mitigating counterparty risk is a prudent step for any business. By employing a third-party backup solution for your financial records, you strengthen your security, maintain control and accessibility, safeguard against vendor lock-in, and ensure compliance with regulatory requirements. Reduce counterparty risk, safeguard your financial data, and enjoy improved peace of mind by implementing a robust backup strategy that includes a reputable third-party provider. Don't leave your sensitive financial records to chance – take control and protect your business today.

How? Subscribe to Control-C.com ;-)

Well, it's very interesting to say the least how the truth is now slowly drip-feeding this thread, about why there's no proper back-up and restore solution.

This is something I have been calling for since my company joined Xero in June 2018. and why others have been calling too, since this thread's beginning and when this thread literally replaced other threads during Xero management's "Idea's/Feature Request" forum change-over.

Let's not pussyfoot around this call for an absolute and proper backup and restore solution - this is an absolute core responsibility on the part of Xero and I firmly stand by that.

Whilst Campbell provides what looks to me on his website like an automated solution by his company to export and store Xero data files, this appears to be referring to Xero export files which can currently be generated manually by the user anyway (involves about 10 files for our Xero account), one has to ask the question whether paying a rent like charge for that on-going service, which you can do yourself, is something you can afford to pay for, especially if you are doing this type of "backup" already?

I opened a support case about 2 weeks ago comparing this exporting to cloning a user's account. The answer I got back confirmed that Xero still has no real export and restore solution. This also means no other proper solution exists for "restore" (which is essentially what I mean by "clone" as a part of feeding *all necessary* backup data into a fresh Xero account to make it be the exact copy of an existing account). But more importantly, is back-up and restore something we should allow Xero not to do as a part of its core responsibility to us, especially given the on-going common sense implied contract of Xero's service is possibly breached without it? It's like a company promoting and selling a product (on an on-going basis I might add) whilst also taking no responsibility for it when they quite possibly know, via their own due-diligence, the service has a core and distinct limitation where unexpected failure and disaster might always be just around the corner, failure which they already know might happen but they decide to take no real action to properly remedy. Maybe that's called unconscionable conduct? Maybe that's like attracting tourists to a volcanic island that knowingly has poor to no safety measures in place when it might explode.

Finally, talking about safety, I do not want my data, such as my customer private data, stored by a third or fourth party.

@Nigel Soakell
I appreciate why you have highlighted and questioned why I didn't mention that I was the Founder and Director of Control-C. There is a balancing act here whereby I chose the path that as a Xero user (which I have been since pre 2012) I could just have a casual conversation between user experiences and share my own thoughts as a user.

A little background - I took 3yrs out of paid employment to build what today is Control-C, it was a long journey as most would know who have taken an idea through to commercialisation. At the time I was the founder/director of a Backup and Disaster Recover service and I was really mindful of the lack of Xero's ability to get data backed up - we had just come off MYOB. So I speak as a user, sharing to others, my service as a possible solution to them. There was certainly no hiding from those wanting to do their research (like yourself) and join the dots, my name is not too common and easy to find given you will find mention of me on the Control-C website. ;-)

I shall also disclose that I worked at Xero at some point in my career if that helps get your head around why you may have never heard of this before, or wondered why I haven’t posted until now. I kept a low profile and did not mix my private business with my Xero employment to avoid any conflict of interests. Xero were aware (through a disclosure process) that I had built and ran Control-C, in fact Rod Drury was also made aware way back in the early days, 12 yrs ago.

In a nutshell, I originally built Control-C for my own use, as an end user. I decided that it might be good to share with others and recover my personal investment in building the first MVP. We have come a long way since.

@Vince Williams
I find your comment odd - "None of the back up software in the app store seem to get glowing reviews!"

You will see that we are the only provider with 5* that are all positive and glowing reviews. I am not sure where you are looking or what you are referring to?

You will also notice that Control-C DOES NOT claim to be able to Restore like one other App in there, which I have asked Xero numerous times to request that they remove their false claims and stop misleading potential purchasers of that app. It is not possible to 'Restore' when you look at the definition of the word 'Restore' - put back to the original state”. Heck, the most crucial part, the Journal can't be restored for starters. Great audit fest to be had when that business that has “pseudo” restored is audited and they have deleted all the historical Journal entries.

Control-C are honest with what is currently possible and don't mislead anyone. I welcome you to try out the service and happy to give anyone here a heavily discounted subscription for the first year. You can find my contact details on our website.

Hi Kelly

Thanks, that's nice to know.

However after reading the article, it only deals with pure accounting data.

We have our inventory, over 2000 items in Xero, plus generate maybe 1000 invoices per month which are very tedious to back up as they have to be done labour intensively in batches.

We are effectively operating on trust and hope that Xero's back up system is foolproof.

To do our own manual back ups it would be helpful to be able to download much bigger batches of invoices and inventory.

None of the back up software in the app store seem to get glowing reviews!

@Campbell Green, thanks for your comments. It would have also been helpful if you had disclosed that you are the Founder Director of Control-C.

@Campbell Green
Do you work at Control-C?

It seems like a good solution to the backup problem. It doesn't solve the problem of restoring data.

Xero's terms surely are clear. Often, as a small business owner, or a start-up, it's not always evident what services will be necessary. Signing up to Xero to solve the bookkeeping problem seems like a fantastic idea.

It also seems to me that Control-C is the easiest way to migrate to Quickbooks or Pastel. Which I would've done already if it was easier to get data out of Xero.

I really don't understand why Xero don't take this more seriously.

It only takes one successful hack to cause such colossal damage to so many businesses that the mind boggles at Xero's arrogance and lack of consideration.

Any simply, WHY don't Xero prioritise the feature? It just doesn't make sense.

@Nigel Soakell
Thank you for your well expressed thoughts and view on this topic. I 100% agree with you.

At Control-C they have made in-roads to addressing your mention of Business Continuity by providing the end user with full access to their backed up accounting data and in addition, features like invoicing, if/when Xero is not available, and then sync back when connectivity is restored etc....

There is a roadmap of feature enhancements to ensure that a small business can keep the lights on, so to speak, by being able to get to their Receivables and also Issue new Invoices while still having access to their accounting data to furnish and meet any impending tax returns, should they ever encounter such a situation.

Business Continuity is critical when operating any business with tight cashflows.

I hope most people understand the benefit of having uninhibited access to their data in a worst case scenario ;-) Control-C does exactly that. Your data is an asset you can’t afford to lose.

Should Xero ever make it possible to push ALL the data back into Xero, Control-C will be the first to be able to 'honestly' say that we can 'Restore' your data.

@Campbell Green
Hi Campbell, yes I understand that Control-C will allow people to comply with Xero's terms of service. However, the reality is that people just want to be able to restore their accounting system in the event something goes wrong, which is what you already can do with other accounting systems.

To be honest being responsible for your own data is pretty much a standard clause with providers, for example Microsoft 365 or Azure. However at least in their case you are able to do full backup and restores using 3rd party tools via the Microsoft API's.

I appreciate the info you have provided and understand that you are just trying to help. The frustration most people have with Xero is they don't provide the backup/restore functionality when it is standard with other accounting systems. And seem to have disregard for looking to implement such a feature.

Furthermore, as you have pointed out they don't allow restoration of the Journal. So, this just reinforces the need for Xero to sort out some backup/restore option themselves or open up Xero to allow 3rd party providers to do the whole job. Unfortunately, Xero customers have no control over what Xero does, and can only make requests in the hope that enough people make the request that they will finally do something. Hence why it is important for more people to make their voice known here. Obviously as others have pointed out people can choose to leave Xero for another accounting system. However personally whilst I dislike some of the quirks of Xero there are other features I really like, so overall I'm happy with the product but are concerned about business continuity if things go bad.

@Sarah Hart yes, fair comment, I am not going to make excuses for Xero and their lack of this feature, but did you read the Terms of Use before you signed up - caveat emptor?

I posted here to help people find a solution to a problem ;-)

@Nigel Soakell thank you for the response to my post. I think the key thing to take out of this is that you can backup your Xero data and you can also access it outside of Xero in a FREE forever, and pretty feature rich standalone app, called 'backapp' for Windows. This means that if you needed to get to your data for whatever reason, you don't need to rely on Xero to do that (subject to some limitations of the Xero API).

I think you will also find, as previous users have already mentioned, Xero's Terms of Use do state...

"You’re responsible for maintaining copies of your data entered into our services."

Control-C simply provides you with a service to comply with this 'Term'. The app was born out of the recognition of the fact there was not any easy way to extract the data out of the service way back pre 2012 (see the history on their website).

From a technical perspective, the double entry accounting system uses a Journal to track ALL transactions. If one was to restore a full copy of their backed up org, Xero would need to allow restoration of the Journal, which they don't.

The best thing that you can do is first protect your data, it is an invaluable business asset that should be protected, and as a side-effect, you will also comply with Xero's terms of use at the same time. ;-)

@Campbell Green, @Sarah Hart, also if you read the FAQ from Control-C they clearly state

"We have spent a considerable amount of time exploring the ability to restore data to Xero, and yes we can restore data, but just not enough to honestly say we can ‘Restore to Xero’. Our view is, that having so many gaps in a restore, and so many limitations on what can currently be restored means that a partial restore actually has little value to a business or accountant. To say otherwise is a play on words and simply misleading to unsuspecting Xero users."

So, I think that says it all !!
And any other 3rd party provider is in the same boat.

Thanks for suggesting Xero users purchase critical services from a third-party service provider @CampbellGreen. ... Alternatively, one could move to Quickbooks or MYOB which enable regular backups within the software subscription, and which take responsibility for the quality of those backups, instead of disclaiming and outsourcing all.

Hi everyone, as Kelly has mentioned above, you could simply plugin an App such as Control-C to do your automated backups for you. Simply search the name 'Control-C' or the key word 'backup' and plug them in.

If you mention that you found Control-C on a Xero community thread they will offer you a heavy discount for the first year right now.

Trying to vote and advise this is a 'CRITICAL' function, yet, even when logged in I can't vote. Good way for Xero to make sure functionality they don't care about/want to build doesn't get voted for. Just like Single Sign-on (SSO) for platforms like AzureAD (Entra ID). They are not taking their responsibilities relating to a being a cloud platform provider serious, let alone their responsibilities for providing these services under the new SOCI regulations within Australia. Think it's about time I take my business and clients elsewhere!

@DMC XERO-ADMIN with the issue that it seems that any and all 3rd party solutions don't have enough access to do a 100% full backup ... so not really an option at all. :-(

Looks like the only way is to relying on third-party paid services...